The Acaeum Dungeons & Dragons
Collecting Forums

Wizards Leaked OGL
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 41, 2, 3, 4
Author

User avatar

Prolific Collector

Posts: 541
Joined: Oct 26, 2005
Last Visit: Jun 02, 2026

Post Posted: Sat Jan 14, 2023 8:00 pm 
 

Maybe I don't understand this issue, but I do not get the big hue and cry over it.  The royalty payments to WOTC don't even start till you've made $750,000 selling under the OGL.  $750k.  If you are making that much creating D&D material, you are living what I would assume many on this board would consider a dream life.  And you're making all that cash without ever having put in any work on the core rules, which is the heaviest lift in the design process.

I get I'm in the minority, but it sounds like one set of millionaires fighting over money with another set of millionaires, with everybody reeeing about "corporate greed."  But who's corporate greed do they mean?

As far as the online platforms and micro charges, nobody at Wizards has a gun to your head to participate.  You have 7 editions of D&D in print out there to play for free to your hearts content once you buy the core books.  And about a million other TTRPGs on top of that.

Granted I have little skin in this game, I've stuck with 3.5/Pathfinder and never invested in any of the new editions.  WOTC doesn't pay my mortgage, I don't care what they do.  

I would like to see the game continue to thrive and grow, however.  I think restricting the OGL is probably a bad move in the short term.  But I don't understand all the sky is falling panic about this.

But what do I know?


The owls are not what they seem...

  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 141
Joined: Jun 19, 2021
Last Visit: May 20, 2023

Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:29 am 
 

Agent Cooper wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:Maybe I don't understand this issue, but I do not get the big hue and cry over it.  The royalty payments to WOTC don't even start till you've made $750,000 selling under the OGL.  $750k.  If you are making that much creating D&D material, you are living what I would assume many on this board would consider a dream life.  And you're making all that cash without ever having put in any work on the core rules, which is the heaviest lift in the design process.

I get I'm in the minority, but it sounds like one set of millionaires fighting over money with another set of millionaires, with everybody reeeing about "corporate greed."  But who's corporate greed do they mean?

As far as the online platforms and micro charges, nobody at Wizards has a gun to your head to participate.  You have 7 editions of D&D in print out there to play for free to your hearts content once you buy the core books.  And about a million other TTRPGs on top of that.

Granted I have little skin in this game, I've stuck with 3.5/Pathfinder and never invested in any of the new editions.  WOTC doesn't pay my mortgage, I don't care what they do.  

I would like to see the game continue to thrive and grow, however.  I think restricting the OGL is probably a bad move in the short term.  But I don't understand all the sky is falling panic about this.

But what do I know?


The panic and backlash is more to do with the language in the leaked new OGL that says WotC will allow you to publish or produce 3rd party content, but they have a perpetual option to take ownership of your content without notice and give you nothing in return.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 12:20 pm 
 

Is that $750K in product sales?
Or $750K in profits?
If you sell $750K at a 10% profit margin, that’s an annual income of $75K before taxes.
That’s not a dream lifestyle to me.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

 WWW  


Prolific Collector

Posts: 147
Joined: Feb 06, 2022
Last Visit: Aug 03, 2026

Post Posted: Sun Jan 15, 2023 1:36 pm 
 

Agent Cooper wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:But what do I know?


There's about a dozen different things that each individually would have caused people to be up in arms about, but then they're rolling back on a couple of them and saying "look, we listened" and hoping people are fooled.

They're still threatening to revoke the OGL, and unless they declare this license irrevocable they've persuaded a lot of people into the situation in which they now find themselves, which is deep trouble, and this behaviour is highly unethical and highly reprehensible.

On that specific point, the way I described it before somewhere else was this:

20 years ago in order to make the rebooted D&D successful WoTC released an open license to entice people to make content (including games) compatible with D&D. This was because TSR's litigious practices had been one of the causes of its demise. It worked and D&D became a big success again.
In the 20 years since lots of people have created lots of content that incorporates varying amounts of stuff from the D&D SRD, and there is lots of IP that could have been created without the SRD, but instead has D&D terminology and/or phrasing scattered throughout.
Not only was the SRD released under this license, but other unrelated games were released under the same license and so have been unwittingly infected.
This is true of an awful lot of games and modules, often ones with only a tangential relationship (or no relationship) to D&D.
In particular some companies instead of creating rival systems to D&D made broadly compatible ones so that there was easy passage between systems - this was the express purpose of the license and benefited both WotC and the other companies.
Now Hasbro is doing a bait and switch, and all this content that could easily have been created without any SRD material (like everyone used to) is infected with it, and even if this does not happen immediately, no-one now trusts them not to attempt at some point in the future to claim both eye-watering royalties and intellectual property rights to all of this material.
This isn't something that only affects retro clones. For example, a game like DCC could easily have been done not under the OGL with only minor changes, but to stop players having to play the terminology guessing game they kept the terminology the same, so have been snared.

So unless you only buy WoTC, Chaosium and Palladium books you'll no doubt have stuff with the OGL in the back, and none of this is likely to ever be reprinted in its current form, as no-one would be foolish enough to take that sort of financial risk.


Ignoring the prior-stuff issued under the OGL and just looking at One-D&D stuff, no-one would be so foolish as to sign the contract that they are suggesting. They can terminate it without little to no warning, claim all your IP, claim a cut off the top that's almost unheard of, and can terminate it if they think your stuff doesn't meet their morality-of-the-day standards.

On that last point, they might terminate your contract because they decide that it contains nudity (AD&D Monster Manual), or Demons and Devils (AD&D), or contributions from undesirable hate-figures (5E's consultantgate), or adult themed material such as drugs and ritual sacrifice (WoTC's Book of Vile Darkness), or portrays gay characters (for which TSR banned a GURPS game from the RPGA which led Steve Jackson Games to a long running boycott). It's almost as though the people in charge have no idea of what's gone on before, since they themselves have both perpetrated the very material they now want to ban, and have unfairly banned material they now wish to champion. Utter hypocrisy.

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3905
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 04, 2026
Location: Italy

Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:10 am 
 

I have a comment and a question: my first thought goes to all the OSR (clones and related products) and I start thinking that they will close the day before this license goes live... speaking in particular about 'inappropriate' contents my mind goes immediately to Lamentations of the Flame Princess...
Then the question: all the disruptive measures we are mentioning about this new version will be effectivr from the effective date onwards and they can't  be applied to past contents, do i understand correctly? (E.g. a module issued 3 years ago under OGL 1.0a can't be invoked as wotc content only because today is in force a different licence)


Image

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2554
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Jan 06, 2024
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 12:15 am 
 

aia wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:I they can't  be applied to past contents, do i understand correctly? (E.g. a module issued 3 years ago under OGL 1.0a can't be invoked as wotc content only because today is in force a different licence)


That is part of the ongoing debate. Something about 'perpetual' not meaning 'perpetual'?

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3905
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 04, 2026
Location: Italy

Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 6:44 am 
 

sauromatian wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:
That is part of the ongoing debate. Something about 'perpetual' not meaning 'perpetual'?


That would be perpetual, but in one direction only: forward-looking. This would mean from now onwards forever and not ever, including the past. Is this really a concern? It seems so crazy to be applied...


Image

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 8:30 am 
 

For a few thousand USD you can move your company offshore and publish your product from a foreign country, and then tell WotC if they have an issue with what you're publishing to sue you. Let's see them stop you publishing when your office is registered in the Cook Islands and their e-mails disappear into a big black hole.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

 WWW  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2554
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Jan 06, 2024
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 2:48 pm 
 

mbassoc2003 wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:For a few thousand USD you can move your company offshore and publish your product from a foreign country, and then tell WotC if they have an issue with what you're publishing to sue you. Let's see them stop you publishing when your office is registered in the Cook Islands and their e-mails disappear into a big black hole.


Would a legendary land of the imagination work? If I incorporate in a mythical in-game kingdom where the rules of physics & basic human decency do not apply, it seems like IP law wouldn't either.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 3:25 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:Would a legendary land of the imagination work? If I incorporate in a mythical in-game kingdom where the rules of physics & basic human decency do not apply, it seems like IP law wouldn't either.

Half the world does not recognise the other half of the world’s rights to IP.
WotC don’t give a F who does what with their IP so long as doesn’t result in bad press. This is nothing more than a money play.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

 WWW  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Subweb Admin
JG Valuation Board

Posts: 4597
Joined: Nov 08, 2002
Last Visit: Aug 03, 2026
Location: Land of 10,000 ponds

Post Posted: Mon Jan 16, 2023 4:39 pm 
 

sauromatian wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:
Would a legendary land of the imagination work? If I incorporate in a mythical in-game kingdom where the rules of physics & basic human decency do not apply, it seems like IP law wouldn't either.


This sounds like Heaven.

ShaneG.


I reject your reality and substitute my own

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5885
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jul 31, 2026
Location: Cow Hampshire, US

Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 12:08 pm 
 

They're making money hand over fist, and feel the need to claw for more. That is how corporations fail.


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 8079
Joined: Jun 23, 2003
Last Visit: Jun 24, 2026
Location: DFW TX

Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 2:09 pm 
 

Agent Cooper wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:
I would like to see the game continue to thrive and grow, however.  I think restricting the OGL is probably a bad move in the short term.  But I don't understand alutl the sky is falling panic about this.

But what do I know?


These actions will do the opposite of having the hobby thrive and grow. It's already fractured the fanbase and it will never be as unified again as it was 2000-2023. At best, no small publisher will ever publish anything compatible with D&D ever again. At worst, hundreds of creators and dozens of companies will be put out of business, unable to sell their existing items or backstock unless massive revisions take place.

About a dozen people in this hobby make real money. The rest, including all smaller publishers and quite a few that would surprise you, have another job because you cannot make enough money in RPGs to make a living. Now, even that side hustle is being taken away.

I work for one of those small companies, so yes the sky is falling for us, and every other third party publisher that did work under the OGL.

Mike B.


"THE MORE YOU THINK ABOUT WHY i DONE WHAT i DONE THE MORE i LAUGH" Cougar
"The Acaeum hates fun" Sir Allen
"I had a collecting emergency" Nogrod
Co-founder of the North Texas RPG Con
NTRPGCON

 WWW  

User avatar

Prolific Collector

Posts: 122
Joined: Jun 16, 2015
Last Visit: May 22, 2026

Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 4:58 pm 
 

And the hits keep on coming.... WotC puts greed to a new level - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zh_1DDgdJAM

  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 7050
Joined: Jan 03, 2005
Last Visit: Jul 24, 2026
Location: UK

Post Posted: Tue Jan 17, 2023 11:18 pm 
 

There’s plenty enough product out there already for everyone to play forever without ever buying a single WotC product ever again.

They cannot use the OGL to restrict or prevent the sale of second hand books.

If you own a company with hardcopy stock, you sell the stock to the shareholder at 1cent and it all becomes second hand books.

There isn’t a third party PoD company out there that won’t print off as many PoDs a willing buyer wants from
PDF, and 99% of all those PDFs are already in the hands of the prospective marketplace.

So the only void in the market is the manufacturing of actual boxes for existing authored products.

This may well result in small press companies restructuring, rebranding, dissolving, but I suspect that those who already write and publish do not do it for the money, and do not set out with any expectation of financial compensation at the outset for their works. That being the case, I suspect these products will still appear, and the world of OSR will continue on a different remittance structure (Patrean/BuymeaCoffee/Whatever).

WotC are just trying to hem in the Woke generation and prevent them from looking outside their walled garden. That generation are too far gone and too dumb to live in a free economy anyways, and if you speak to them they don’t want to live in a free society, so who are we to stop them? WotC are just moving to stake out their territory in the new economic landscape is all.


This week I've been mostly eating . . . The white ones with the little red flecks in them.

 WWW  

User avatar

Grandstanding Collector

Posts: 5885
Joined: Jun 30, 2003
Last Visit: Jul 31, 2026
Location: Cow Hampshire, US

Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 9:08 pm 
 

I say we develop a free old school D&D app. The best way to get to kids is a phone app, especially with emoticons since we could make emoticons of D&D cons. We make it a free app as long as the users agree to become Acaeum members and sign a disclaimer stating they will never buy a retail WotC product, and we detail why. Some still will, but the recent generations LOVE having a cause, especially pointing the finger at The Man. Eventually the youth of the world would unite and the Acaeum would be a household name. Acaeum groupies with multicolored hair and the equivalent IQ of an albino garden slug would be lined up at the doors of the longtime members, offering their remaining virtue for a glimpse at a 2nd print brown box set, which would easily sell for $100,000 in VF condition. Edited pictures and videos of members would be posted on TikTok, Youtube and other useless social media sites. WotC would file a lawsuit, but Elon Musk would endorse and eventually buy the Acaeum rights along with WotC, fire half the WotC employees, and within 10 years colonists on Mars would be playing 9E D&D on replicated carbon-neutral paper using replicated carbon-neutral wood substitute pencils and replicated titanium dice, with 1/3 green dragon/ 1/3 black pudding / 1/3 Jupiterling anti-antipaladin characters.
Maybe it's just the Jack Daniels talking, but hey, a guy can dream, can't he?


If you hit a Rowsdower, you get to keep it.

  


Sage Collector

Posts: 2554
Joined: Jul 25, 2007
Last Visit: Jan 06, 2024
Location: Far Harad, Texas

Post Posted: Wed Jan 18, 2023 10:31 pm 
 

Deadlord wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:Maybe it's just the Jack Daniels talking


That describes the start of every small-press effort.

  

User avatar

Long-Winded Collector
Valuation Board
Acaeum Donor

Posts: 3905
Joined: Nov 23, 2005
Last Visit: Aug 04, 2026
Location: Italy

Post Posted: Thu Jan 19, 2023 12:07 am 
 

sauromatian wrote in Wizards Leaked OGL:
That describes the start of every small-press effort.


Hey, you and you! What ...rrre you takking ...bbbout? *Hick!* Just press on the banner here belllow... *Hick!*


Image

 WWW  
PreviousNext
Post new topic Reply to topic Page 2 of 41, 2, 3, 4