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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 11:03 am 
 

As of today, I´m proud owner of at least one copy each of the first printings of german Dungeons & Dragons items, as depicted below. (Not counting "Drache", of which I´m still missing several issues). The copies of Festung im Grenzland and Palast der Silberprinzessin are in good shape, the copy of Blizzard Pass less so. I did not pull out my old B3 copy, which I bought in ca. 1985. Thinking of this, I remembered that when I bought the module, they had copies of each version in the hobby shop back then, so the different printings were sold parallel. I guess they reprinted them when the newer english versions were published, but had enough in stock that they still sold the older ones.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 1:35 pm 
 

I just saw a D&D Rules Cyclopedia in German ("Das grosse Buch der D&D-Regeln" being sold on ebay for almost 80 Euro.  According to the description and photos, I think it is in a "Fine" grade, perhaps leaning to "Very Fine". I do not have a German copy in my collection yet, but at this prices, I guess it will be a while until I can add one. And here was I thinking that asking prices about 100 Euro were ridiculous - turns out, this is just a tad high, but not in the ridiculous area.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 3:01 pm 
 

I recently translated an interview with Gary Gygax. As I´m not a professional translator by any means, some translations may be odd or some grammar wrong. So, here you go:


An Interview with Gary Gygax, from „DRACHE" #3, Cover Date October 1984

" People playing D&D learn how to solve problems…."

Gary Gygax, the inventor of D&D, AD&D and author of countless modules and RPG gaming aids, faced the editor of DRACHE for an interview. It turned out to be a long and interesting talk. And we are proud to be able to present it to our readers here:
Q: Mr. Gygax, you have seen the first issue of DRACHE. What do you think of it?
A: Yes, I have seen DRACHE. I think the cover is as excellent as the content. I haven´t read everything, but am very eager to see how this magazine will continue. It is the first non-english magazine being able to come close to the US original DRAGON in the long run. The first issue is a collectors item in any case.
Q: You did not read everything, but a part of it. How fluent are you in german? Please, tell us something about your family.
A: The Gygax family is an old one and lived in a small village close to a lake. My father came to the US as a small boy. I talked swiss-german with my grandmother in my youth. My german vocabulary is still that of a five year old boy. Five year olds also can´t read very well. But I studied german history in depth later on.
Q: What is the cultural background of what we call D&D today, anyway?
A: It started with my father telling me stories by my bedside. My favorite stories always had people with enchanted cloaks, rings, and so on. I read Grimms tales and Andersens stories. I started to read mythological legends as a small boy. Then came the interest in history. I often compared mythological heroes to historical heroes. I was a regular in the Chicago library, where books stood next to each other and all are worth reading.
Q: Mr. Gygax, would you like to live in a D&D world? Does the game perhaps originate from such a wish, from a thought of escaping?
A: mmh, I am used to running cold and hot water and love my daily cup of coffee. I nevertheless feel that many people have a longing for another, more exiting life in a fantasy world.
Q: Mr. Gygax, some people think that D&D is a typical American Hollywood-style RPG.
A: A major part of the D&D game is European, the monsters as well as the scenarios. The ideas behind the modules are often medieval European as well.
Q: Now for a completely different question: How do you develop a module? What is module development 101?
A: There has to be a reason for everything. There has to be a reason for the place being there. Who lives there, and how does he live there. There has to be a reason for the PCs to risk their lives to have an adventure at that place. Keep on the Borderlands, for example, is a place devised detailed and meticulously, at which several creatures fight for their survival.


Q: How long are you supposed to play through an ideal module?
A: Okay, you can play a long long time with a good module. There is a number of activities before the adventure even starts that can keep a player busy quite some time. You go into a village, equipping yourself, buying weapons, armor, food and other important things. Then you leave the village, and find an outpost of the adventure. There you step into the labyrinth. You often have to find important items there. Afterwards, you leave the dungeon again and have a wilderness adventure. The adventure should be as realistic as possible.
Q: A good dungeon should have monsters in every room, every thirty feet you should stumble into an adventure. How do you construct a dungeon?
A: That is not easily answered. No player group is like the other. In one group there are usually people of about the same age and similar interests. They determine what is good in the adventure and what is not. If they want to have a monster in every room, then it is ok. If they open a 20´ x 20´ room and want to find 20 x 20 monsters, okay. For my own purposes I have designed giant cave systems which were without monsters for a big part. They may then contain traps or other, non-obvious things. Only killing monsters all the time is not satisfactorily for me. I also like it if you use tricks while designing a dungeon, like an illusion of a golden dragon over a basilisk, old men who are friendly the first time and deadly the second. These are fun things. If you design a dungeon, you create history, and that is important.
Q: You just have to take care that you remain in history prior to the invention of guns.
A: Yes, I hope that I never meet a D&D party whose characters are armed with guns.
Q: What do you want to achieve with D&D? Is there a message to the world in it?
A: Absolutely not. The original purpose of D&D is for the players to have fun with it. On the other hand, it is surely not bad if you have fun and learn something also. And there is much to learn in D&D. It starts with historical history [sic! In the german text, it is "historische Geschichte". I can only guess that something is lost in translation], and ends with social problems. The players have to learn to relate to each other as players as well as player characters. Playing D&D teaches you to solve problems. If you don´t learn well, you won´t play well. That´s it.
Q: Does D&D has a tendency to build super characters?
A: The D&D game is based on the theory that there is so much to know and to do that nobody can do everything on his own. The team aspect is important. There will always be a better and stronger man, a good DM will see to that. In a D&D game, each player has to use his strengths at the right place. Otherwise, the group won´t be able to survive.
Q: Could you give us an example for this, please?
A: Yes. Let´s just take the magic-user. He becomes incredibly mighty at a certain level. He has clear weaknesses on the other hand. He needs the fighter, the clerics and the thieves, otherwise he would fail even with the mighty spells in the easiest dungeon. A group can only be strong together.
Q: Is D&D generally cruel and brutal?
A: D&D is a fight of good against evil, with the players taking the side of good. It is similar to reality. Each group has their own ideals. D&D gets as cruel and brutal as the players are, that strongly depends on the group. I took part in adventures in which almost no violence took place.
Q: So, D&D is a fight with ideas rather than a fight with lances and axes.
A: Beyond any doubt. If the group is very intelligent, they will automatically experience an intelligent fun. Furthermore, D&D is not a reality. It is like chess. In the end all the pieces get into the box, none are hurt, none are killed.
Q: D&D is a game that spreads very fast throughout Europe. Where does this success come from?
A: The game is a fantasy roleplaying game. And fantasy is very popular nowadays. Every human has the desire to be able to fantasize. There is no game other than D&D and nothing else to sate that desire in this way. Everybody loves stories about wizards and dragons and adventurers. With D&D, you can experience these adventures yourself. I am not surprised that D&D is such a success in Europe. I am looking forward to the first international D&D gathering, where Japanese will play with Spanish, New Zealanders with Austrians and everybody with everybody else.
Q: What are your further plans?
A: I am busy at the moment with the Dungeons & Dragons Entertainment Corporation. We made movies, and we will make more movies.
Q: At last, we would like to ask you to reveal an interesting D&D secret.
A: I am not sure which secret is the best. Perhaps Drache readers will be happy to hear that after the basic and expert set the companion set is now published. Afterwards, there will be to more sets, the master set and the immortal set. We are also hard working at a translation of Advanced Dungeons & Dragons.
Mr. Gygax, thank you for the conversation.
Interviewer: Hans W. Jany
It is stated that Gary Gygax offered Drache readers to answer all questions that they would send in to Drache, and those answers would be published in Drache as well.
Footnote: it states that the companion set is available immediately via book and hobby stores on order from FSV.

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Post Posted: Thu Apr 13, 2017 10:35 pm 
 

Thanks for posting that, stebehil - it's always fun to read a "new" Gygax interview! Is there a photo of Gygax with the article?

I'm going to add the answer referring to B2 to my Gygax on B2 page.

And the old man he referred to here...

Gygax wrote:I also like it if you use tricks while designing a dungeon, like an illusion of a golden dragon over a basilisk, old men who are friendly the first time and deadly the second. These are fun things.


...shows up in the examples for the Dungeon Geomorphs Set One - Basic Dungeons:

1.  A rudely furnished room with an old holy man (lawful/good) who has sworn a vow of silence. He will not fight if attacked. He takes only 2 hit points. There is a pottery flask containing his drinking water in one corner; a small container near his pallet has a handful of lentils (all of his food); there are some rags hanging from a nail in the wall, and a wooden begging bowl on a rough wooded table near the door holds 1 silver piece and 3 coppers. If he is impolitely treated or his room is searched he will do nothing, but he will never aid the offenders. If so much as a single copper piece is dropped in his bowl, he will make a holy sign which will add 1 hit point permanently to all party members. After doing the latter, he will disappear when the party leaves, and he will be replaced by 1A.

a.    An insane fiend conforming generally to the description of 1. above. He will say nothing until a party is in his abode, but will then attack with two hidden daggers. He takes 12 hit points, with an armor class equal to 5 due to his 18 dexterity. He has no treasure to begin with…

(transcription courtesy grodog's greyhawk at Dungeon Geomorphs and Outdoor Geomorphs in Greyhawk)


Zenopus Archives website & blog: Exploring the Underworld of Holmes Basic D&D. Holmes Ref: Reference Sheets for Holmes Basic Referees, also compatible with OD&D plus the Greyhawk supplement

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 2:33 pm 
 

Zenopus wrote in The history of german D&D/AD&D as I know it: Is there a photo of Gygax with the article?


Yes, there is one. I guess I will scan it these days, but as the quality is not too good, I´m not sure how good it will scan. I´ve got another interview in a book about RPGs, but this seems to contain mostly long-known information. I might translate it nevertheless.

Interesting links you posted there, Zenopus. Next year it will be ten years already that Gary Gygax died... Time flies.

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Post Posted: Fri Apr 14, 2017 11:50 pm 
 

Yes, I'd be interested in seeing the photo even if the quality isn't great. It may be one that was used elsewhere, but if not it will be interesting to find a new photo even if the quality isn't great.

I turned my post above into a blog post pointing folks to the interview here: ZENOPUS ARCHIVES: Gygax Interview in Drache #3 October 1984

To make the post more interesting I added the cover of Drache #3. I noticed the wizard looks a lot like Kelek, a TSR evil wizard used in a lot of licensed products around 1983. There was a Kelek action figure, and he appeared in one episode of the D&D cartoon. I was curious about this so I searched the image and found it appeared on an earlier book, a Philip K. Dick novel translated into German in 1981. You can see this cover in the blog post. Since it's earlier, from 1981, it makes me wonder if the design of Kelek was actually influenced by this art rather than the other way around.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 3:41 am 
 

So, I´ve scanned the photos from Drache #3 and from "Das Große Buch der Fantasy-Rollenspiele" (1984). As both are printed on coarse, yellow-grayish paper in low resolutions, the quality is not great, but here you are.

@ Zenopus: It says "D&D Turnier Modul" on the cover, which means tournament module. It is a short tournament module for a thief character, apparently.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 12:52 pm 
 

stebehil wrote in The history of german D&D/AD&D as I know it:So, I´ve scanned the photos from Drache #3 and from "Das Große Buch der Fantasy-Rollenspiele" (1984). As both are printed on coarse, yellow-grayish paper in low resolutions, the quality is not great, but here you are.


Great! Thanks for sharing those; I haven't seen either before. The first photo is very nice. There's a neat D&D T-shirt in the background which I've never seen before. Do you know what is written beneath the dragon artwork?

@ Zenopus: It says "D&D Turnier Modul" on the cover, which means tournament module. It is a short tournament module for a thief character, apparently.


Thanks for that info - I updated my post. Speaking of the modules, I was looking at the contents of Drache via that site you posted on the first page of this thread (rollenspiel-info.de) and noticed that every issue of Drache after the first had one. I made a list:

Drache #2 - "Die Villa" (The Villa) for levels 1-3 (4 pages)
Drache #3 - "Das Fallenlabyrinth der Diesbesgilde" (The Fallen Labyrinth of the Thieves Guild) tournament module for a single thief (4 pages)
Drache #4 - "Gefangen im Goblinbau" (Trapped in Goblin Building) by Tobias Schoess, for levels 1-3 (5 pages)
Drache #5 - "Die Burg der 1000 Fragen" (The Castle of 1000 Questions) for newly created characters (5 pages)
Drache #6 - "Das Grab des Königs" (The Tomb of the King) for level 1-3 (7 pages)
Drache #7 - "Das Loch der Waldwichtel" (The Loch of the Forestry) for levels 4-7 (5 pages)
Drache #8 - "Das Schloß am Weg" (The Castle on the Way) for levels 2-4 (8 pages)

I assume that all of these were written for the German Basic/Expert Sets. It looks like a nice set of adventures to supplement the modules that were translated.

The translations are via Google, so please let me know if they can be improved. I found the author info for the one in #4 on RPGGeek;
Several issues (1, 2, 4, Best-of) have their contents detailed there: Drache (German) | Periodical | RPGGeek
BTW, that is another site where you could document all of the German RPG products that you have collected.


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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:13 pm 
 

Zenopus wrote in The history of german D&D/AD&D as I know it:Great! Thanks for sharing those; I haven't seen either before. The first photo is very nice. There's a neat D&D T-shirt in the background which I've never seen before. Do you know what is written beneath the dragon artwork?

It seems to read "Dungeons & Dragons in Deutschland" (in Germany). I´ve never seen one of those anywhere.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:23 pm 
 

Zenopus wrote in The history of german D&D/AD&D as I know it:
Thanks for that info - I updated my post. Speaking of the modules, I was looking at the contents of Drache via that site you posted on the first page of this thread (rollenspiel-info.de) and noticed that every issue of Drache after the first had one. I made a list:

Drache #2 - "Die Villa" (The Villa) for levels 1-3 (4 pages)
Drache #3 - "Das Fallenlabyrinth der Diesbesgilde" (The Fallen Labyrinth of the Thieves Guild) tournament module for a single thief (4 pages)
Drache #4 - "Gefangen im Goblinbau" (Trapped in Goblin Building) by Tobias Schoess, for levels 1-3 (5 pages)
Drache #5 - "Die Burg der 1000 Fragen" (The Castle of 1000 Questions) for newly created characters (5 pages)
Drache #6 - "Das Grab des Königs" (The Tomb of the King) for level 1-3 (7 pages)
Drache #7 - "Das Loch der Waldwichtel" (The Loch of the Forestry) for levels 4-7 (5 pages)
Drache #8 - "Das Schloß am Weg" (The Castle on the Way) for levels 2-4 (8 pages)


Drache #3 would translate as "The Trap Labyrinth of the Thieves Guild" (Falle is trap, Fallen is the plural form. Yes, this is a homonyme with fallen=falling.)
Drache #4 "bau" means lair in this context, it can denote an animal lair in German.
Drache #7 would be "The hole of the forest gnomes", Wichtel being small fairies in German. I don´t own this issue, so I cannot look at that adventure to see what kind of creature is in there. Gnome is an appoximation, and does not mean the typical D&D gnome, which is called a Gnom in German.
Drache #8 is difficult to translate spot on. "am" usually denotes "close to" or "to the side". It might be "the castle along the way".

The other translations are spot on.

EDIT: Yes, at that point in time, Basic/Expert D&D was the only version available, so everything should be written for this version.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:39 pm 
 

The module in Drache #8 was written by Ralf Pichocki, and even contains a few sketches of the locations.
The module in Drache #3 was written by Hans Michael Bensching.
For the module in #2, no author is given.

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Post Posted: Sat Apr 15, 2017 1:47 pm 
 

I updated the info given on the first photo I posted earlier.

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Post Posted: Mon May 15, 2017 2:29 am 
 

I just thought about the name Star Frontiers/Sternengarde. Garde meaning guards, as in honor guards or similar. This has nothing to do with the game, as far as I can tell (never played it). Frontiers as a word probably evokes that mental image of the "great unknown" lying beyond, and points to the "cowboys with swords" (or lasers) image mentioned earlier.
Now, frontier and border are both translated as "Grenze" in German, the connotation of frontier does not exist here. Instead, using the word Grenze in (West) Germany in the 80ies would instantly evoke images of that horrible and at times deadly border to the GDR, as the other borders (to France, Austria etc.) would slowly get opened at that time, and started not being regarded as true borders anymore. So, using Sternengrenze as a literal translation would probably not have been a good marketing move. I guess that "garde" was chosen simply because it sounded close to "grenze", without any thoughts about the content of the game.

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Post Posted: Wed May 17, 2017 6:04 pm 
 

I managed to acquire a copy of B 4 Die Vergessene Stadt recently. The backside shows the "1984" layout, but really interesting is an ad on the last page of the module itself. It shows "Das große Buch der Fantasy-Rollenspiele" I mentioned earlier (the photo of Gary Gygax and Hans W. Jany is from that book), and states that it is available. The foreword of this book has the date of April 30, 1984, so the module was probably published around that time also. This confirms my tentative dating of Spring/Summer 1984.

So, to repeat:

1983 modules: yellow diagonal bar on front, backcover art, listing of B1 as "Aufbruch ins Unbekannte", Fasanenweg 3-5 adress
1983/84 module BS1 (first print):  red diagonal bar on front, backcover art, listing of B1 as "Aufbruch ins Unbekannte", Fasanenweg 3 adress
1984 modules: red horizontal bar on front, backcover without art, B1 "Hügel des Grauens", Fasanenweg 3 adress
(maybe late 1984) 1985 and later modules:  red horizontal bar on front, backcover without art, B1 "Hügel des Grauens", Fasanenweg 5 adress, big FSV logo.

With later modules, note the varying amount of modules listed on the back. Again, let me link to the archive:
German Dungeons & Dragons Archive
B2 (1984) lists only three Experten-Set modules, where B1 (1985) lists seven, including Lathan´s Gold as E6 (which was, of course, never realized). B5, B6 and B7 list even more modules, pointing to a later date. As they include Ausbau Set adventures, this was probably published or nearing publication. B8 does only list basic modules, just noting the existence of the other sets and modules.

Pretty much the same pattern can be seen with the Experten Set modules, starting with the seven-module listing seen at B1. E5 to E7 show the same amount as B5- B7. B8 finds no parallel here, the reason for this is of course that this is one of the last products from FSV, being available in mid-1988.

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Post Posted: Tue May 30, 2017 5:57 pm 
 

How's your 3rd edition knowledge? Just curious if the 3rd edition core rulebooks from the boxed sets are the same as those sold separately. Or were they even sold separately? My understanding is that they were sold in boxes in order to circumvent some sort of pricing issue with books... any info on that whole deal would be great! Thanks!


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Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 2:21 am 
 

In the late 90ies/early 00s I was occupied with other things, so my knowledge is limited. I´m not sure if the 3.0 core books were sold separately, my collection is very limited here. I had a look at the 3.0 Spielleiterhandbuch and the 3.5 Spielerhandbuch, both bear no price tag, which is to my understanding mandatory if sold separately. I do recall buying the 3.5 Spielleiterhandbuch as a separate book, but at that point, Feder & Schwert had taken over from Amigo, so they might have changed sales policies anyway. This book and the 3.5 Monsterhandbuch both have a price tag, which indicates that they were sold separately (and which I both bought separately, IIRC).

With the German book market, there is a law called the Buchpreisbindung, meaning that German publishers have to set a fixed price for books and similar products for retail sales. (not true for imported books, btw). The retailers have to sell the books at that price. (The reasoning is to protect books as a special cultural item and to enable small, local bookstores to exist. The latter point is more or less moot these days, independent book stores are all but gone today.) Because of this law, the books have to have a price tag so that the buyer can see the price at a glance. It could be that the boxed sets counted as games and were not subject to this law. But I guess that Amigo as a games manufacturer was more comfortable with producing boxes, as is seen in the late 90ies German AD&D2 edition. I´m pretty sure seeing the 3.5 Spielerhandbuch being sold separately later on. So, this law is probably not the main reason for the boxed sets, but rather the manufacturer preference. Most if not all games come with a suggested retail price anyway, and most stores just sell games at these prices for the most part, so it is of little practical relevance.

I just browsed my German Dragons of that era, and found that the German 3.0 Spieler Set was published in mid-2001. Amigo tried to have that ready at the Spielemesse Essen in October 2000, but there were several delays with that and the follow-up products. I´ll see if I can get more informations out of the magazines later on.

Interestingly, the 3.5 Spielerhandbuch and Spieler Set box bear the logos of both Amigo and Feder & Schwert, while the later 3.5 books have the F&S logo alone. So, the transition from on publisher to the other is even marked on the books.

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Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 9:09 am 
 

Interesting, thanks for the info! That all seems pretty consistent with what I've seen. All of the 3.0 books appear to be boxed only, no prices, by Amigo. The 3.5 Spielerhandbuch, boxed, by Amigo/F&S. I've not seen boxed versions of the 3.5 Spielleiterhandbuch or Monsterhandbuch and they appear to be F&S only. Thanks again, this helps me know what to look for!


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Post Posted: Wed May 31, 2017 12:11 pm 
 

This excellent page has the contents of the Sets listed (in German): rollenspiel-info.de

So, the 3.0 Spieler Set (2001) contained the Spielerhandbuch, 32 pages of "starting helps" and a floor plan.
The 3.0 Spielleiter Set (2002) contained the rulebook and 24 pages of "tables and adventures"
The 3.0 Monster Set (2002) contained the rulebook and a sturdy carton sheet with 35 monster counters.

The 3.5 Spieler Set (2004) contained the rulebook and 16 pages with guidelines, a glossary and a character sheet.

I guess I have to go through the odds and ends to see if I got any of these additional items from the boxes.

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