mbassoc2003 wrote:TBH, if I picked up a second copy, it would be for investment purposes.

Ian, I though you just needed a pdf version

Badmike wrote:The good thing is that it looks like everyone who wants one will get a copy, which is fabulous...

Cool!  Thanks.

So whats the price for the original ...?

As I recall, I think the original stayed with EO? That being the case, I'm sure EO would be willing to sell you it, Mike.

I'd love a copy of the hi-res image for my collection, but I'm guessing that's not gonna happen. Releasing the hi-res image out away from the production team risks it 'going wild'.

I'm hoping someone is going to be very particular about the print quality of the final lithograph. If I get a print that looks like it came off a lazerjet I'll be disapointed. All in all, I like the colour balance and composition of the final piece. The centrepiece (the frazzled figter) is a little awkward, and jarrs a little, but it is a limited edition EO print, and in any project you have to give both the commitee and the artist freedom to create.

I like it and I'm looking forward to receiving what I hope is a solid cardboard tube through the mail.

JasonZavoda wrote:This was a deal for an unseen piece of artwork.

I can understand people backing down because of the cost or just their own finances, but after all the complaints and demands to increase the number of these prints it pisses me off to see people backing out because they don't like the art.

Not liking the art is fine (start a thread about it without polluting this one or send a pm to the committee). Backing out on an agreement is not in my book. Not when everyone knew this was an artists choice piece and everyone knew it was a commitment SIGHT UNSEEN.

When we have people saying, well I said I'd buy it, but I don't want it, but put me down for the next one... Well everyone who backed out on this one should be bumped to a waiting list for any future project.

And with all the damn complaints over the artwork are we even going to get another from Otus ( I sure as hell wouldn't be inclinded to do a special project for us if I were him after all this crap being thrown EO's way).

So next time, if there is one, lets keep it to 50 (or less) and make sure that the people who actually honored their commitments get dibs, not the ones who back out when this lengthy process actually comes to the finish line.

Absolutely agree Jason, couldnt have said it better myself.

Tharizdun wrote:Absolutely disagree. If this was a "deal" to purchase "sight unseen" artwork then money would've been collected right up front. It wasn't. Really, it's pretty much a sucker bet to do it any other way...

If someone paid me Brom money I'd churn these bad boys out day and night if I were anyone else who worked for TSR, criticism be damned

What crap.

People begged to increase the number of these available. No word about backing out if they didn't like the picture. Now when the deal is done people are wheedling out, plain and simple.

You are as good as your word ... or your not.

benjoshua wrote:GREAT NEWS!

Therefore, the EO Committee is requesting that each person on BOTH the Suave Seventy List AND the Newest Waiting List state again their intent to buy a print.

Yep, I'm still in and committed to buying a print.

JasonZavoda wrote:
What crap.

People begged to increase the number of these available. No word about backing out if they didn't like the picture. Now when the deal is done people are wheedling out, plain and simple.

You are as good as your word ... or your not.

Quote from benjoshua on page 4:
"Adding your name to this list does not commit you to buy a print, but indicates strong interest and the money to back up that interest."

It was stated from the start that putting your name on the list was NOT a commitment to buy. Why are you trying to turn it into one?

Since I was on the reserve list, I don't feel so bad in saying that I, unfortunately, am out. Thank your for the opportunity all the same.

As a project to do with the community here, I think it is and has been a cool one. It's exciting for so many of us because we have those great nostalgic memories of Erol's cool covers and interiors over the years.

Also, as someone who's gone through many commissions with various artists as several others here have, I know that it can be a time-consuming process and handling the graphic output is another ballgame that I don't have a whole lot of experience in. And I know that part of it is time-consuming in and of itself, as I've worked with departments and companies that handle that for their full-time jobs. I very much appreciate the time and effort to the guys for tackling this, as well as the shipping fulfillment that Badmike is going to undertake.

Even though I stayed in the buying group, I'm definitely happy and encouraged that the criticisms are made. From my perspective, I think it'll be tremendously helpful to see this as an evolving learning process if and when we do another commission. And that's really the gist of my long and rambling post...

I do completely understand all of the posts made in critical judgement of the art, and I think they've all been spot on. I absolutely know that art is very subjective as Tharizdun stated. Moreover, I really think fewer members would have bailed if a couple additional and minor steps had been taken along the way, as a communication/dialogue with the artist.

In case some members haven't gone this commission route before, on a $50-$200 sketch drawing commission at a Gen Con, a Comic Con or any other con, you make a simple request of the artist, and you basically pay for art sight-unseen until it's completed. This could also happen if you contact an artist directly. You typically give them some details or as much detail as you want on your character/scene sketch. Many times, attendees just say "Draw me a Wonder Woman/Psylocke pinup" or "Sketch me an anti-paladin". Typically, there would not be a prelim sketch done -- there's not going to be much back and forth with changes simply because of the low price of the project involved. Of course, if you have a relationship with the artist, then there may be one rough sketch prior to the finish product.

Any work going above say $300, especially on a painting, the artist is absolutely going to give you a prelim or two (incorporating changes on the prelim) prior to hitting the paint. The point of the sketches is obviously for the artist to receive feedback on any changes in direction from the client. And again, if you have a relationship with the artist, they're going to want to make you that much more happy when you walk away.

Trust me on this, illustrators love direction, especially if you couch it in story terms, which is what I was trying to get at way back when the project was taking off. The more description you give them, the more choices they have to pull ideas from. They aren't necessarily going to arrange the characters in the exact way they did in a previous painting. My experience is that I don't think they usually like to do re-hashes. Instead, they like challenges and fresh stuff that, possibly could be based on something they've done, but with a different twist. You can still call out the characters in the scene (fighter, elf, cleric) but they're not going to be posed exactly like whichever cover you like the best since the artist doesn't want to be really micromanaged.  Just providing a little back story or some little trial the character(s) have to go through, with some details of what the character looks like/is adorned with and let the artist do his or her thing.

I think back on all the Dragon magazine issues. On the title pages, there's always a short blurb on the story behind the cover painting. You almost have to get into the artist's shoes and think the way they do to get them really involved in your idea. And Erol definitely worked in his own little story into this piece, which I like.

Of course, as Tharizdun mentioned, I don't know what other conversations occurred with Erol before or after the rough sketch, but I definitely think a second sketch would've helped out tremendously. There was mention of even rougher line drawings done before, but I'm not sure that would've helped to quell some of the previously posted complaints.

And really, I don't think anyone should get offended at the complaints or comments. It's all fair game, and I haven't seen any post (yet   ) that Erol couldn't have handled easily.

I realize that Erol was given artist license on this, but requests for changes can still be made in the sketch process. He works with clients all the time, so I definitely wouldn't be shy about making any request at all. It's standard procedure, and again, it's a product that he wants his clients to be happy about and not feel as if they can't make any comments.

Looking back, I had a hard time understanding the thumbnail sketch that was posted, even with description listed below it. I get it now, but there are certain things that could have been taken into consideration, such that many folks would have stayed onboard for the purchase of the final.

I understand and wouldn't want to have too many chefs on the committee, but you could still solicit comments on the prelim(s) from the folks buying the print. The more involvement I think would have retained the ones who decided to drop out. Obviously the enthusiasm on this was tremendous. Certainly two or three comments (doesn't have to be much) from the buying group could have been filtered by the committee/considered/put forth.

A more finalized sketch I believe was really in order. This drawing would be different than the shaded or finished pencil work that BNagata's brother has been doing for BBarsh's modules. This type of finalized sketch, especially of the characters, could have solicited minor changes enough for everyone's liking. For those that would be happy with anything Erol did, no harm no foul. But just a simple change of flavor comment for the Female Cleric would have made major inroads to keeping people onboard.

A more finalized sketch could have resolved the background and color choices. It's hard to understand the choices on that sketch, but I've seen artists write out simple notes with arrows that point into the sketch (think of call-outs) having to do with color, action, etc. You have to remember that the artists are thinking steps ahead on what color and lighting choices they're going to be hitting things with and the notes help cue in the client (for instance "dark storms in bg", "carnivorous plants in foreground", "reddish sand", "waterfall" and so on). That could've helped out in the request for having the Cthulu dragon creature (along with its beholder-attachment-limb) and the elf/goblin magic user not blend with the same color background.

Even spacing out the action was a small comment that could have been easily be accomodated, especially taking into account the size of this piece. The hardest request I can think of in the sketch phase would've been to shift the goblin elf to the background, or to one or the other far side, so that he's not overlapping the main story point -- the paladin's moment of system shock.

...Just some ideas to put forth for next time just to make sure we retain as many folks through the end, that's my 2cents/2pents.

I backed out of this, something I thought very seriously about.

It's not about the money, or even 'keeping my word' - it's simply about the piece itself and the reason it has come to fruition.

I simply don't love it, and if I bought it then it would stay in the mailing tube, and eventually be sold on. This is in my opinion NOT what the project was all about. This was about a display piece for members of this forum, who would display it with pride, along with a sense of belonging. It would be a testement to this site and specifically to the hard work done by those few members who brought it to this conclusion. (ans the artist of course, who I still respect very much).

So to do people down who have backed out for, potentially, all the right reasons is poor form indeed. I think it's worse that this will be owned by people who have, for all intents and purposes, no real connection to this site and have (maybe) bought the print solely as an investment , but then maybe I'm cynical that way.