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Post Posted: Thu May 24, 2012 11:02 pm 
 

At the moment there seems to be a huge interest in the various Kickstarter projects doing the rounds, as well as a varied assortment of small-press old-school type stuff and various other fluff/nonsense (empty boxes spring to mind). While some of this stuff seems quite interesting, I'm kind of interested in a general opinion of these products.

So, a few questions, but general input would be appreciated.

1) Why are we interested in this stuff? Is it because its a known author, or a recognised subject or just because we think it might be an appreciating asset? Do we sign up for this stuff simply because we don't want to miss out on what might be the product of the century? (Presumably a lot of KS products will be next to impossible to get hold of after the event.)

2) Why is a lot of this stuff touted here anyway? Is it because of clever marketing, or is this being posted all over the internet and I just don't bother to look at many other RPG site? Is it because the authors here know that we are suckers for this stuff, no matter what?

3) Quality - are we even interested in the quality of the product - writing/art/physical quality/originality - or is it an irrelevence?

4) Does anyone have any concerns about being ripped off, or do we just put our money in and hope for the best - I would imagine the time scales of many of these projects will mean we will potentially be out of time to make a claim for non-delivery of a project.

5) What KS project would you most like to see happen? Who are the authors/artists that you most wish to see back in print.

6) Outside of collecting what are you randomly throwing your money at in the hope of a return in the distant future?


For me I feel it is mostly about a vague feeling of not missing out - perhaps the feeling of remorse would be too much to bear, and after all it might only be a couple of hundred bucks wasted (potentially) anyway!

Maybe everone on this site has every other RPG product ever produced and it is simply impossible to comprehend NOT buying this stuff.

Perhaps we really do believe that the next KS product really will be a complete revelation - perhaps I'm missing something, but it is possible that they're not all just another version of a product that we've seen before in a similar form.

Maybe we all need loads of extra crap in our lives - god knows I need more t-shirts and badges.


I don't actually mean to sound overly cynical - I'm sure a lot of this kit is going to be very worthwhile, and I'm sure that I'll definitely feel that remorse down the line, but I just find it all a bit strange.


Turned into a bit of a rambe, sorry about that, just interested in other peoples take on this.


Carl


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:28 am 
 

For me, it's partly who is involved and partly what interest it might hold for me.

I've weighed in on 2 KS projects so far, not too heavily but enough to get the print versions complete. As for extras, that's not really my bag, but if I can get something in the deal so be it.

I certainly won't chase every KS project, some are too expensive, others just don't appeal. But I think there maybe some guys here who aim to collect every gaming version and release, so they will go in on every KS to complete their collections, which I understand.


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:28 am 
 

I don't have the funds to support a KS project atm, but for me, the only one to draw my attention was Rappan Athuk, purely on its longevity and history and the quality of the original. Like CZ:UW, RA has its foundations in a campaign dungeon played for many years way back when D&D was not so commercialised, crippled with rulebooks and corporations bleeding the players dry. It harks back to a time when playing RPGs was about having fun, something RAR managed to recapture, and something which 90% of the BS published by the industry fails to understand.


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 1:55 pm 
 

For the most part, I have supported Kickstarter stuff because:

a)  It is a collectible.

b)  I was supporting projects.


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:10 pm 
 

Mark, do you see it is collectible or worth having for its quality?


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:14 pm 
 

I am obviously taking a risk on quality.

My Kickstarter support is limited to:

1)  People I know.  (Although it is not a Kickstarter project - anything from Bill Barsh would be a good example.)

2)  Projects I know. (Rappan Athuk would be a good example)

3)  Projects I consider worthy for some other reason.

Now that has become clear that everyone and his dog will have a Kickstarter project of some sort (my old buddies are talking about picking up a project we dropped in 2001...for instance), supporting every one doesn't make sense.


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 2:28 pm 
 

ashmire13 wrote:Mark, do you see it is collectible or worth having for its quality?


Collectibilty is the primary reason I purchase a product.  Nostalgia would be second.  Reading interest/curiosity would be the third reason.  Game use would be fourth.

IF I was only collecting quality game products....something I would use in my own games.....90% of the classic TSR modules would not be on my shelf.  (stinkerooo, man!)  Neither would pretty much anything 2nd Edition, no modules from WOTC and nothing from most of the 1970's - 80's third party publishers except a select few Judges Guild modules.  (Oh - and nothing from Forgotten Realms and/or Dragonlance.)

In my opinion, some of the 3.0/3.5 modules were actually among the best and most useable game products ever...and a lot of collectors won't even touch them.  When you get away from all the supposedly "crunchy" rules additions (like endless new spells, special rules and dubious prestige classes), a lot of the D20 Era products had more bite and more game play than some of the most popular TSR modules.  Publishers like Necromancer stand out from the crowd.  A couple of the Troll Lord products were also outstanding.   Green Ronin also had a few hits.  Basically, the rule for D20 products is that if it presents a new campaign setting or a "topical publication" (arms and equipment, alchemy, new spells or dark elves, for instance) you should expect a lot of very useless schlock.  If it's only a module, you have a good chance of picking up some seriously good ideas.  If nothing else, the D20 revolution provided an opportunity to see material from writers outside the inner circle in Wisconsin...and a lot of those writers were good.


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 3:09 pm 
 

I like your reasoning :)


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Post Posted: Fri May 25, 2012 10:18 pm 
 

So is collectibility more important than quality or vice-versa? (Not that the quality of an rpg product has any correlation at all to value historically)

Ian makes a good point that RA is probably worthwhile because of the quality of previous product in the line - though of course previous performance is not an indication of future performance, though you would hope the high standard would be maintained (which would also make it easier to run another project in the future). I would imagine these things will find their own level - you can't release a shoddy, late, disappointing kickstarter and then expect your next release to get positive attention.


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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 5:14 am 
 

Personally potential quality and interest are may buying points.
I'd not get the full collectible set at say $300 etc as that's too much for me.

And it doesn't add to the base product quality unfortunately, I don't think.


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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 8:50 am 
 

Just doing a little searching on the kickstarter site does unearth some unusual and interesting projects going on ... 8O

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sea ... m=roleplay


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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 9:21 am 
 

red_bus wrote:Just doing a little searching on the kickstarter site does unearth some unusual and interesting projects going on ... 8O

http://www.kickstarter.com/projects/sea ... m=roleplay


I've used the RPG Kickstarters Tumblr page here --> http://rpgkickstarters.tumblr.com/ as it seems to weed out some of the "fodder" but it may be weeding out too much too.

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:17 am 
 

Well I am hardly representative of a major backer as I have only involved myself in a few projects.

I am with FormCritic in regards to collecting stuff from people I know from this site. Guy Fullerton, Bill Barsh, and Robert Pinnell are the best examples to me so far.

As far as KS projects go I backed the following-

1. Labyrinth Lord Referees Screen- I'll buy anything Dan Proctor puts out from Goblinoid Games. I received this in a very timely manner and am quite pleased with the result.
2. OGRE Designers Edition- I was a huge fan of the OGRE computer game on the Amiga I had BITD. Never owned much of Steve Jackson's other stuff, but I am aware of a bunch of it. The game itself is just huge, and the stretch goals added much the final game content. Plus I am a sucker for swag.
3. RA- This one I backed solely because of the strength of recommendations of members here. The entire D20 era took place without me ever reading or buying a product (I only own a single one now, a module written by Rob Kuntz which I bought solely on the strength of the name behind it). Looking at it now, I see it's from Necromancer Games which some people seem to have fond feelings toward.

Someday soon, a large group of RPGers are going to get genuinely ripped off when a product fails to be delivered. When making a game or supplement or what have you turns from being a passion to becoming a product with deadlines and "customers" its scope changes and I hate to say it, but a lot of RPG people are idea people and not business people. I think if you look at a project for what it is and more importantly, what it isn't (Only a silly person would see it purely as a pre-order for example) you have a better chance of having your expectations met.

Zach

On a related note, it always surprised me that the guys from Eldritch Enterprises didn't do a Kickstarter. Just the names behind the company alone would have generated a ton of interest especially if they had set a high backer reward level with a commensurate collectible gift. Plus, they have a "few months of experience" between them.



  

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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 6:54 pm 
 

Nogrod wrote:Someday soon, a large group of RPGers are going to get genuinely ripped off when a product fails to be delivered.


I don't think so, or at least they're not at any more risk than any other group.  While it is absolutely true that crowdfunding sites' policies state that you aren't guaranteed to receive anything for your "donation", it would be a serious black eye for any creator/company that failed to deliver as well as for the site itself.  Reputation systems can fail, but it's a pretty strong disincentive to cheat people out of money.  So, yes, I'd imagine some small projects have failed, but I haven't heard of any larger successfully funded projects (in any field) that have failed to deliver.  Some have tried, but one of the powers of crowdfunding is that you have more people with more interest in making sure things are on the up and up.  So I don't worry about getting nothing for my money.  Now, whether I'll get something of QUALITY for my money or not... that's something altogether different.  I haven't been disappointed yet - three projects I've received what I paid for and been happy with the results, eight are funded and I'm waiting for items, and I see two at the moment that I'll probably contribute to.


As to the original questions...

1. Most of the material being produced through this method is along the same lines as those produced under the OGL ten years ago or at small presses thirty years ago - third party supplements, some of widely high quality, some of which will be hard to find in the future, and some of which will be valuable later (and the overlap between those three is not assured).  Whereas ten years ago, a popular book would have been reprinted as needed, I think most crowdfunding projects in our area are aiming at one shot (more akin to thirty years ago), and not as actual kickstarts to forming companies to keep these items in print, at least so far.  And even for those that are doing that, or are established companies looking to be sure of interest before publishing, there is often some exclusive bonus item that will be the rare piece in the future.  So that's where the general interest comes in.  There is a collector focus to many of the products in our field, and we are collectors.

2. This form of getting work produced is being discussed at many RPG forums, not just here.  We actually talk about it a lot less than other places.

3. Quality is desirable, naturally, but that's going to be a gamble with the first time creators.  But there are non-TSR collectors who fervently seek out all manner of obscure and nigh-useless dreck simply because it's rare.  Personally, I've drawn my line at AD&D1/OSRIC statted products for the entire OSR movement, and will keep that as my line for Kickstarters.  It's somewhat arbitrary, and I occasionally cross it (Dwimmermount, RA), but that's still a huge amount of books, and very few people can really buy EVERYTHING.

Actually, where I'm finding myself having more hesitation is for some PDF only, and even some POD, products at lulu or rpgnow.  The price points somehow seem even more out of whack at times.  $12 for a printed module or <$5 for a PDF?  No problem.  I'll take a shot; sometimes they'll be good.  Big money on a Kickstarter that I think will offer a huge product that seems like it will be of good quality?  A bigger risk, but I'll still go for it.  But a recent PDF I noticed is 17 pages for $10.50.  That's pretty hefty!  One page is the cover, there may be an OGL page... that's getting thin... heck, it already was thin!

4.  See above.  I think the chance of being totally screwed on a project is pretty low.

5. Paul Vernon - Ristenby Town.

6. Some of the other projects I've supported are a few cool looking board games, a movie, a graphic novel, and an iPhone accessory.


Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:06 pm 
 

TheHistorian wrote:
Nogrod wrote:Someday soon, a large group of RPGers are going to get genuinely ripped off when a product fails to be delivered.


I don't think so, or at least they're not at any more risk than any other group.  While it is absolutely true that crowdfunding sites' policies state that you aren't guaranteed to receive anything for your "donation", it would be a serious black eye for any creator/company that failed to deliver as well as for the site itself.  Reputation systems can fail, but it's a pretty strong disincentive to cheat people out of money.  So, yes, I'd imagine some small projects have failed, but I haven't heard of any larger successfully funded projects (in any field) that have failed to deliver.  Some have tried, but one of the powers of crowdfunding is that you have more people with more interest in making sure things are on the up and up.  So I don't worry about getting nothing for my money.  


I completely agree with this disagreement we seem to have except for this part-

TheHistorian wrote:So I don't worry about getting nothing for my money.  


The SEC and the stock market are built on trust and careful study as well, yet I have never heard of a stock scam  :wink: I do agree with you wholeheartedly that reputation is the one intangible that no one who wants to do anything "serious" in this hobby can afford to lose. But things happen and, after working a large portion of my life with legal and regulatory issues (I was a regulatory agency deputy director in Arizona and it was as dull as it sounds), I have seen so many artful and believable scams go unnoticed for years in heavily scrutinized industries, that I just might be jaded.

Here are couple of kickstarter examples to consider, while they are not RPGs, they caught my attention before I pulled the trigger and sent a chunk of change Steve Jackson's way.  While researching the "investment" (i.e. donation) I made for OGRE, a few red flags turned up.

Here are two.

kickstarter.com/projects/zioneyez/eyezt ... r/comments

kickstarter.com/projects/1168713538/the ... d/comments

Here is a fraud that was caught before of being funded (By scrupulous nerds who seem to value community as much as I would like to think we do).

betabeat.com/2012/04/this-is-what-a-kic ... ooks-like/

What I originally meant in my post on this thread about a ripoff sounded harsher than it should have, but it was still intended to focus on more than quality concerns (like you described above) and more on potential for outright scams. Very sane and wondful people who want very badly for a product they absolutely must have are uniquely positioned to be taken advantage of by people without scruples.

Look it seems to me we already endlessly discuss vaporware or it's equivalent here. I doubt that a truly dedicated con-artist couldn't find a way to fool us (even an unwitting con man who might be in above his head).

We are a small enough community that I think we are relatively safe thanks to sites like this one, but to think we have any special position of safety from scammers is a level of trust I just don't feel comfortable with.

Zach

Side note: Chaotic Henchman, Pinhammer, Pacesetter, Goblinoid, Black Blade, Centerstage, Brave Halfling, Frog God, Autarch et al please know that I will be happy to back any project you might create on a Kickstarter in the future as the products you have sold to me to date are exactly what I want to buy anyway and to contribute to making them better from the outset would be cool with me. You all have had your minor detractors, but after some research I would still stick with my statement.



  

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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 10:39 pm 
 

Historian mentioned Ristenby Town in his post,

Oh yes, good call - can someone get on the phone to Paul Vernon in the morning :D


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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:00 pm 
 

Nogrod wrote:We are a small enough community that I think we are relatively safe thanks to sites like this one, but to think we have any special position of safety from scammers is a level of trust I just don't feel comfortable with.


I don't think we're much different than any other group.  Some small percentage of crowdfunded projects will fail to produce, and some small subset of those were scams in the first place.  I'm just saying that I think the odds are so low that I'm not worrying about it much.


Areas of interest/knowledge: Harn, WFRP, Ars Magica, anything BRP based such as CoC, Runequest, Pendragon and all their related games

  

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Post Posted: Sat May 26, 2012 11:54 pm 
 

At some point someone in the gaming kickstarter community will fail to produce, it's inevitable. People with far more famous reputations than guys who write games have ripped off large amounts of people for large amounts of money.  

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