There are a number of loopholes that PC's abuse to try to gain an advantage over a DM's best laid plans.  Using fine flour to sniff out secret doors/panels through air drafts is a classic example.  When I DM'ed these tactics, I sometimes stated that certain characters had a better chance to find secret doors or traps or whatever because they used these techniques.  In other words, just because a player knows certain techniques doesn't mean their PC knows them, in the same way that, just because a player doesn't know how to cast a spell doesn't mean their PC MU doesn't.  

There were also times when I decided to not argue, pretended like I agreed with them, and rolled my dice without giving them any advantage.  This largely depended on whether the player was the argumentative type, aka the rules lawyer.  There are some people who will argue about anything.  On these forums, they sometimes get labeled as trolls.  However, if I felt like the player was teachable, I might explain my justification(s).

That being said, I am not against creativity or thinking outside the box.  Allowing players to throw their sword in an effort to cut the rope currently hanging one of their comrades, or to wedge their dagger in the secret door to prevent the ogre from following them, or the attempt of one of many other atypical maneuvers would be allowed by me with rational modifiers considering factors I deemed relevant.

So, I say all of that to say that, if a player decided to create water inside of another players lungs, I might say that the priest who taught you that spell communicated to you that it would never work, but you can try it anyway.  And if they insisted on trying, I'd roll the dice as if it had a chance and say the spell simply didn't work as planned and sputtered out.

I once had a elf MU player say they wanted to cast a Fireball spell over the party fighting drow or something short.  I asked how he planned to do that.  He said he would throw his bat guano  (physical component) over the party and into the enemy.  I said that the fireball shot straight out of the player's hands and did not arc according to his throwing ability.  We argued about that for a long time, but eventually I indicated to the player that he could try to arc his fireball, even though he'd never attempted that in the past, and see what happened.  He decided to not cast the fireball.

I think the basic principle is that players are players and PC's are PC's, and the DM alone is the intermediary or translator between the two worlds.  It's up to the players to communicate what they would like their players to do, say, & be and the DM tells the players what happens when they communicate their wishes.  When a players turns role-playing into roll manipulating, trouble usually follows.  

As a DM (primarily) and a player, I've never thought to restrict myself/players to the "rules" found in books with regards to spells and other feats.  It's one of the main reasons I wrote the Throwigames Simple Roleplying System - it encourages out of the box thinking and the attempts of extreme actions (with somewhat hilarious or unexpected results).  I believe as a DM, it is my right to start and frame the story, but the players fill out the details of that story with their antics and feats.  Do players remember that time you cast a magic missile at the goblin?  Probably not.  But do they remember the time that the wizardy-guy created an air bubble around his head and walked the bottom of the lake, or created a homing arrow of fire that chased the foe around a corner, or the time that the warrior slid under the table, cutting off the legs of the foe on the other side?  They sure do.

I encourage my players to get creative, try new things.  Warriors are always leaping in to battle, destructionists are tormenting or destroying life and limb, and magical arts adventurers are always trying new ways to kill or incapacitate their foes.  I usually see at least a half a dozen new ideas every session.  Pull air out of their foes lungs?  Sure.  Freeze the blood in their veins?  Why not?  Aim fiery blasts at limbs?  Of course!

Also, my game system really negates rule-lawyers... because there are so few in the area of magic.  Adventurers get base magical points and use them however they want.  *They* create their own rules around their crafted spells.  I just have to come up with the MP cost.

I want my players to remember their games sessions.  Not because I have an amazing backstory and pages of detail, but because they did something amazing, original, or absolutely unbelievable!

~throwi

As a DM I would negate any spell like create water inside a living being.
However, for most situations that come up with creative thinking by players; I would almost never I do such a thing.

As for the rule books they are simply a means to an end, not the end all be all, therefore Rules Lawyers would have big trouble turning my rulings.

Creativity is the essence of roleplaying.
The DM creates the outline of the story, the players fill out the details of the story and that is where they create the fun.
DMs are there to ride the wave.

webrik33 wrote in Abuse in D&D spells:  the characters unfamiliarity with dragon anatomy caused the spell to take effect inside the dragons bladder and the dragon is now in effect pissing everywhere! and it's acidic!

roll for ST vs ACID!  

webrik33 wrote in Abuse in D&D spells:

lokiwookie wrote in Abuse in D&D spells:Thanks all.

Actually, to find a creativite and ingenious way to use their spells is pretty cool and I think that we all encourage our players to. However, I am particularly interested in spells that are used "outside their normal uses" to get overwhelming effects, in a clearly pervert way to get spectacular effects (like killing a dragon with a simple create water, for example, juste because the spell doesn't state that create water cannot be cast inside a monster).



I would be very interested in!

i would say unless they have actually 'seen' the anatomy of a dragon how would they know where or which organ the create water spell took effect on? you could as the DM simply state the characters unfamiliarity with dragon anatomy caused the spell to take effect inside the dragons bladder and the dragon is now in effect pissing everywhere! and it's acidic! roll for ST vs ACID!

or at the least his acidic urine degrades all non magical armor components by -1  

my Aunt Mary was our DM growing up and she was dastardly. No tomfoolery like that in her games. i loved playing in her campaigns, she always had such cool ideas. ah the good old days

There's actually a higher-level [wizard or druid] spell called "Drown" which does just that. Although it's a 6th or 7th level spell I think...